MOTOTRBO and IP

Introduction

This post was first published on 25 October 2012 - it has been altered since then and includes additional information and clarifications. (The last change was made on 06.09.13).

For non-IT folk, the way to think about a MOTOTRBO system (any system, except maybe Connect Plus), is think about it as a computer network: the radios are end points and the repeaters are routers and, in some cases, end-points. MOTOTRBO radios send and receive voice (and data) using IP. A MOTOTRBO radio has an IP address (made up of the CAI number and Radio ID). We can access some of that IP data by connecting the radio to a PC and making use of things like data transfer and text messaging.
In general, MOTOTRBO repeaters have three interfaces:
  1. The Ethernet interface – This is via the RJ45 Ethernet connector on the back of the DR3000 or on the controller of the MTR3000.
  2. The RF Air Interface – As you guessed, this is done via the transmitter and receiver using the ETSI DMR standard and some Motorola specialities.
  3. The USB interface
Similarly, MOTOTRBO radios have two interfaces:
  1. The RF Air Interface – As you guessed, this is done via the transmitter and receiver using the ETSI DMR standard and some Motorola specialities.
  2. The USB interface.
In this post, I will only discuss the Ethernet interface of the repeater and specifically the configuration thereof in relation to voice and data. When I say data, I mean data that originates from the user (text; telemetry; MMDS and GPS) and from the repeaters themselves (control messages; handshakes, arbitration etc.). The majority of traffic (number of packets per hour) on a regular MOTOTRBO network will be voice in any case.
In summary, we can say the following about MOTOTRBO repeaters and systems:
  • Supports IPv4 addressing.
  • Uses UDP/IP to transfer voice and data.
  • Requires sufficient bandwidth to pass voice and data between sites.
  • Generally requires a stable latency of less than around 600ms**.
  • Jitter as close as possible to zero.
  • Requires one static IP address per network for the master repeater.
  • Supports VPN, NAT, VLANs, Firewalls etc.
** Based on customer feedback. The Motorola Engineering recommendation for latency is less than 90ms.

IPv4 and IPv6

MOTOTRBO repeaters support IP version 4 addressing. Some IP networks and the Worldwide Web have begun to use IP version 6 addressing.  Most IPv6 networks support Dual IP Stack which means that IPv4 and IPv6 devices can share the same network components. The most noticeable difference between the two, is the way in which an IP version 6 address is written.
Read further about IP version 6 here and about IP version 4 here.
Like any other IP device, the MOTOTRBO repeater needs to know five pieces of information about the network in terms of IP: - It’s own IP address; the IP address of the Gateway; the subnet mask; the UDP port and the IP address of the Master.
There are two ways of allocating these values: either through Static IP addressing (you define it) or via Dynamic IP addressing (the DHCP handles this) and DHCP. Static IP addressing is best suited for applications where there is no DHCP server or where the network administrator has implemented static IP throughout (though the latter is rare).
An example of a network where no DHCP is used could be a Wireless Broadband network you have installed yourself using Cambium (formerly Motorola) Point to Point links and no other infrastructure exists (i.e. this is your own IP backbone).
If no DHCP server exists then static IP addressing should be used on all devices. This means that no matter if the repeater is a Master or Peer, the IP address used must be predefined. A good place to plan this sort of information is on your fleetmap.
If the network is being piggybacked on an existing network, where there already is a DHCP server, then the peer repeaters can use DHCP for IP address allocation. This of course only applies to IP Site Connect and (Single Site) Capacity Plus where everything is on the same LAN.
Linked Capacity Plus systems, and IP Site Connect systems which use the internet (or any other medium), need routers on the sites and the configuration thereof is a little different. I will discuss Linked Capacity Plus separately as this seems to be a difficultly for some folk.

UDP

MOTOTRBO uses UDP to transfer voice and data between sites. UDP is very well suited for this, in that it is simple to implement (in terms of hardware); allows packets to arrive in a different order than they were sent and avoids the need for retries (as is the case with TCP). UDP is nothing new to us: well known services such as Skype; Remote Desktop; IP Telephony and IPTV (Digital cable TV) all use UDP in one way or another.
UDP also requires us to define a port number (also referred to as a socket). This port number is specified in the repeater codeplug and sometimes configured in the router and / or firewall.
Read about UDP here.

The Router

The Cisco Catalyst 6513 Router
Rather than me explaining how a Router works, rather have a look at Wikipedia. There are also some nice introductory videos on Youtube here; here and here (they all talk about Rowters though).
There is also a series of good videos, on Youtube about generel principles of computer networking here.
In a MOTOTRBO IP Site Connect network, a Router is used to connect multiple sites via another medium. Some examples of this include: connecting sites via the Inernet (ADSL) or connecting sites using Fiber-Optic.
I have shown three examples of Routers here: The Cisco Catalyst 6513 (which you would never use in a MOTOTRBO Network becuase of price capacity and size); the HP MSR20-20, which is the Motorola Engineering reccomended Router and the Netgear WNR1000, which is the Router I use when I do training. All three of these devices do the same thing - the only difference - in my opinion - is the processing power and (as a result) reliability.
The HP MSR20-20 Router
In a MOTOTRBO Capacity Plus system, a Router would be used to provide external access to the repeaters via an existing WAN or via the Internet (or whatever). The repeaters would need to be accessed externally, if the customer was using a Dispatch Application or RDAC.
In a MOTOTRBO Linked Capacity Plus system, the Router has a dual purpose: 1) it forwards traffic from the WAN to the Master repeater and 2) prevents Limited IP Broadcast traffic from escaping the LAN and interfering with the operation of other repeaters.
Almost all Routers nowadays are configured via a web browser: you connect your PC to the Router on one of the LAN ports (plugs), start Internet Explorer (or whatever you use to look on the internet), go to the IP address of the Router and make some changes.

There are four settings that you would need to look at in the Router:
  1. The WAN connection method and IP addressing. here you would need to know how the Router will connect to the internet and/or to the other sites. If you are connecting to the internet, your connection will be provided by an Internet Service Provider.
  2. The LAN IP address (my suggestion is to leave this as is). This is the IP address of the Router on the LAN. It is also the gateway IP address (as in the codeplug) according to the Repeaters on this site.
    The Netgear WNR1000
    
  3. Port forwarding. This is requred on the site which contains the Master repeater and ensures anything coming in from the WAN (or LAN) is forwarded to the Master.
  4. DHCP and LAN addresses. Remember that the Master repeater needs a Static IP Address. Devices which do not require a Static IP Address can use a Dynamic IP Address. This Dynamic IP Address is assigned by the Router using DHCP.
It makes good engineering sense to keep MOTOTRBO repeaters behind a seperate Router - in other words on their own LAN.

The Seven Layers

Its also probably a good time for your to read about the OSI model now. Ethernet switches and PTP links operate at layer 2. Routers and Wireless Modems (3G/4G cards) operate at Layer 3.

The Eighth Layer

The 8th Layer in the OSI Model is the most problematic! 95% of the problems I see with MOTOTRBO (and other IP based) Systems is directly attributable to this.

The Port

The IP address of a networked device provides a means of delivering data to it. This IP address is also used when that device needs to send data to another device. This works well on a device to device level.
The port provides a second level of addressing within an IP based system where a specific application at a specific IP can be addressed. For example, a PC connected to the internet uses IP address 140.101.16.142 however web pages are received using TCP port 1080 and emails sent on port 25. The IP address talks to the box whereas the port addresses the application in that box.
With the exception of IP Remote programming, MOTOTRBO exclusively uses UDP for all communications between sites and repeaters.

Port Forwarding

Port Forwarding (sometimes called Port Mapping) is a method by which the address and/or port number of a packet, arriving on one connection of a Router, is translated to new destination. This may include accepting such packets via a packet filter.
A Router which supports Port Forwarding may also do this by means of a routing table. The destination may be a predetermined network port on a device within a LAN, based on the port number on which the packet was received at the Router, from the originating device.
Port Forwarding is used to permit communications by external devices with services (e.g. MOTOTRBO UDP) provided within a LAN behind a Router.
Learn more about Port Forwarding here.
Consider the following network. Here we have a MOTOTRBO IP Site Connect network with two sites and two repeaters on each site.

Here, we can do something interesting: there are two repeaters offering four virtual channels (i.e. two channels with two slots each). Not only that, we can put one Master on one site and the other on the other site.
Here Peer 2 is linked to Master 1 and Peer 1 is linked to Master 2. The connection is via two Routers and a WAN cloud. The Routers use Static IP Addressing on their WAN Ports. They also use DHCP to give IP Addresses to the Peer repeaters. The Masters use Static IP addressing and in fact the same LAN IP Address.
How can the two Masters use the same IP Address? Because they are in different LANs and because the two Routers use Port Forwarding. UDP traffic from Peer 2 is on port 50000 and is forwarded to 192.168.0.2 on Router 1. UDP traffic from Peer 1 is on port 51000 and is forwarded to 192.168.0.2 on Router 2. The two IPSC links are differentiated by means of the port number.

NAT Loopback 

NB! As of release 2.2, NAT Loopback is no longer a requirements for the Routers used in Linked Capacity Plus. The information posted here is for your information only.

A router which supports NAT Loopback is critical in a Linked Capacity Plus system, if the firmware in the repeaters is older than R02.20.02 or if a RDAC PC is using the same LAN. Packets, from the Repeaters within the same site, which are destined for the Master, need to be directed to the router and forwarded to the Master repeater. Even the Master repeater needs to use the router - that is why the Master IP address field is not greyed out when Link Type is set to Master.

Consider the above Linked Capacity Plus system. Here we have two sites, with three repeaters on each site. The Router on Site 1 is configured with port forwarding and NAT loopback such that any TCP or UDP traffic on port 50000 is sent to the Master repeater at 192.168.0.2. The IP Address (192.168.0.2) of the Master is static.
The Router on Site 2 does not need to have port forwarding enabled. All the peers on all of the sites, all use Dynamic IP Addressing . The DHCP server within Routers 1 and 2 are configured to allocate IP addresses in the range of 192.168.0.3 to 192.168.0.200.
192.168.0.201 is reserved for the Rest Channel IP Address – which is also static and common to all repeaters. I will discuss the Rest Channel IP Address separately.
These two LANs can use the same IP Address range becuase they are seperated by two routers.
The WAN can be anything. In this case, it's just a direct CAT5 cable connection and since there is no Internet Service provider or DHCP server here, I have made up my own Static IP Addresses: 10.0.0.1 for Site 1 and 10.0.0.2 for Site 2. You would probably do the same if you were installing PTP links or Fiber-Optic.
Let's assume for one moment, that we have just switched on Peer 3 on Site 2 and Peer 2 on site 1. They are configured to register themselves with the Master repeater (this is defined in the CPS). They will do this using UDP/IP.
According to Peer 3 (Site 2), the Master repeater has IP Address 10.0.0.1. Therefore, to send its packet to this address, it needs to go through the Gateway - since 10.0.0.1 is not within the range defined by the Subnet Mask (this is set in the CPS and Router). The Gateway in this case is the Router (Site 2 Router).
The registration packet goes off to 10.0.0.1 via the Gateway (follow the green line) and arrives at the WAN port of the other Router: Site 1 Router. Since this Router has Port Forwarding enabled, and since the registration packet arrives on UDP port 50000, the Router automaticaly forwards this to 192.168.0.2 - the Master Router.
Now, when Peer 2, on Site 1 powers up, it also connects to the Master, at the same IP Address: 10.0.0.1, but since the Router (Site 1 Router) has NAT Loopback, the packet is redirected to the Master. If NAT Loopback was not there, the repeater would simply not connect to the network. Follow the red line above.
Remember that the Master is only needed for registering (adding) repeaters to the network. If the Master fails, the system will continue to operate abeit the reduced number of channels on one site. If this is an issue, another repeater can be used to act as a standby Master (a subject of a forthcoming post).

During normal operation, UDP traffic from the other sites on port 50000 will automatically be forwarded to the Master becuase of the port forearding setting in the Router on Site 1. Traffic on other ports will be forwarded as per the information contained in the respective packet headers - that is any traffic not on port 50000 will be directed to the peer on that site.

No port forwarding is needed for the peers since the information required to send UDP traffic between them is exchanged when they power up and when their lease is renewed. The lease is renewed whenever the DHCP gives out a new IP address - this IP address is only allocated for a limited period defined in the Router.

Rest Channel IP Address

In a Linked Capacity Plus system, whenever a repeater becomes a Rest Channel, it generates two IP Addresses for itself. One IP Address acts as a destination for Arbitration (TR-A-RT) packets from the other repeaters.
The (normal) IP Address given to the repeater by the DHCP server - or Statically assigned - is retained while this is happening. In other words, there are two IP addresses to set: the IP address for all traffic and a second, Rest Channel IP address, which is only used while the repeater is a rest channel. 
The UDP Port for the Rest Channel should be different: I use 55000.

QoS

In a Router, UDP packets on the ports used by the repeaters, need to have high priority in the Router.
Read more about QoS here.

Firewalls

There is no issue with operating a MOTOTRBO repeater within a network with a Firewall. The only requirement is that a specific port (default is UDP port 50000) be opened on the firewall. Alternatively, an allready open port on the Firewall can be used for MOTOTRBO traffic.
Remember that if Remote IP Programming is ticked, the Master UDP Port (both in the CPS) is used for both programming the repeaters and for UDP traffic. Remote IP Programming uses TCP so therefore the Firewall must be opened to both TCP and UDP traffic if you intend using this feature.
Remote IP Programming allows the programming of (32Mb memory) repeaters via an IP connection, rather than connecting to the repeater directly.


TCP

TCP/IP is only used for IP Remote Programming of a repeater - specifically since it inherently supports packet retry which is important when writing codeplugs. 

107 comments:

  1. Not just your English, it is the standard for the English language so of course a network router must be pronounced "rooter" since the name is based upon the word "route" which obviously is pronounced "root" like "Route 66" for Americans! The word "rout" on the other hand has no letter "e" on the end so it is very easy to tell the difference and it does rhyme with "out" it means to remove or destroy and has lead to the term router for a woodworking tool which removes material. So saying "routed packets" the American way of course means "dropped or discarded packets"

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    1. My apologies for the delay in replying. I thought I was the only one :-)

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  2. hello,
    great blog and very useful information about LCP.
    I am trying to launch LCP in my city, but I have some difficulties. I have some questions to you. How can I contact you? Could you give your email address?
    BR
    Sebastian

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    1. This comment has been removed by the author.

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    2. My apologies for the delay in replying. As mentioned on the blog, I am unable to assist with technical support requests. You would need to either contact your Motorola Partner (i.e. your Motorola radio supplier) or Motorola Representative.

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    3. My contact details can be found on the "Contact" page or via the "Contact Me" form. I had to delete my previous reply as I was starting to get (email) spammed.

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  3. Do you know the part number for the 32MB board? I have two repeaers with 8 mb board and I want to enable IP Remote programming at least for one. So, I need the part number to start searching for the upgrade. The repeaters are for hamradio use in Romania. TNX, Adrian, yo3hjv at gmail . com

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    1. In order to upgrade an 8Mb DR3000 to 32Mb, you will need to replace the: receiver; transmitter; indicator board and some cables (essentially everything except the power supply and chassis). The cost of these parts would amount to more than a new repeater. If you really want to do this, give me the model number and I'll post the parts list here?
      Otherwise if you would prefer to get a new repeater, I can put you in touch with one of Motorola's partners there, who might be able to give you a good discount?

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    2. BTW be careful about leaving your email address in comments, I'm already getting some spam due to me providing my email address in reply to a previous comment in this post. The machines scanning Blogger for email addresses, probably know about such obfuscation methods (e.g. email at domain dot com).

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    3. Well wayne, for correspondence I use the callsign and the gmail. You figure how! I will be glad to know about a dealer with good discount because the dealer I bought two repeaters seems to be not supporting some issues here. BTW, I am working to a HW unit to extract the GPS information direct from TCP packets and reformatting to a APRS compatible stream. I am not sure if it's not a Motorola Copyright infringement and I want somehow to cooperate with them in this project. Can you give me a hint on this? 73 de yo3hjv, Adrian

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    4. OK, give me a few days to arrange something. I'll drop you a mail soon with the details.

      I'm not a legal expert so I cannot comment on the Copyright part.

      There are documented interface specification for GPS and IP data (have a look at my post on GPS http://cwh050.blogspot.com/2012/10/mototrbo-gps-in-nutshell.html). These specifications are available to a community of Licensed Developers and Application Partners who have developed hardware and written applications around MOTOTRBO - more information here http://bit.ly/1ggYbs2 and here http://bit.ly/12in5RW.


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  4. Hi Wayne, great article. I was looking for something similar on the Internet and I finally arrived here. What I wanted to do in my project, you already have it in pictures. But I want to replace the the routers with switches and for the WAN cloud, I want to implement a 15 Km (>100Mbps) mircowave link and have the two LANs bridged-up with all master and peer devices on the same subnet. I have one DR3000.

    Gibson Reuben
    Port Moresby
    Papua New Guinea

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  5. Hi Wayne, great article. I was looking for something similar on the Internet and I finally arrived here. What I wanted to do in my project, you already have it in pictures. But I want to replace the the routers with switches and for the WAN cloud, I want to implement a 15 Km (>100Mbps) mircowave link and have the two LANs bridged-up with all master and peer devices on the same subnet. I have one DR3000.

    Gibson Reuben
    Port Moresby
    Papua New Guinea

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    1. As long as you're running IP Site Connect, you should be okay. Linked Capacity Plus needs a router on each site.

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  6. Hello Wayne,

    Nice article. I am looking at a DM3601. I believe this has IP connect as well. My main issue you might have answered. How well will this perform on a satellite link wih a latency of 600ms?

    I would really appreciate your response.

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    1. The DM3601 does not connect to the network - this only possible on the repeater. IP Site Connect is a function of the repeater (DR3000 or MTR3000). The general recommendation is to have a latency of less than 300ms. IP Site Connect may work correctly at 600ms latency but this cannot be guaranteed.

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  7. hello Sir, I am Zafar from Pakistan. I have been facing a problem of Mute Calls. By this, i mean that when i press the PTT of a walkie talkie set, Radio ID appeared on recipient walkie talkie set but voice does not transmit, either on any one or two or more walkie talkie sets or on all sets. i am using 02 repeaters in capacity plus mode connected through ethernet cable. looking forward for your kind guidance plz ...

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  8. Hello Sir, i am Ammar from Pakistan. I have been facing problem of MUTE CALLS in capacity plus mode. By Mute Calls, I mean that when i press PTT of my W/T, its PTT is engaged, radio ID also appeared on recipient W/T but voice does not receive on recipient W/Talkies, either on any one, two, some or on all W/Talkies.i have been using 2 repeaters in capacity plus mode connected through Ethernet cable with each other. Looking froward for your kind guidance in this regard please. Regards ...

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    1. There are a number of possible causes:

      De-sensing on the repeaters.
      Programming error in the radios.
      Out of coverage area (unbalanced inbound-outbound coverage).

      Who supplied you this system? Maybe you should be asking them this question?

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  9. Sir Thanks alot for your kind guidance ...

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    1. Are you using a RF combiner on this system?

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  10. Sir we have purchased from a local contractor authorized by Motorolla company. moreover, i missed one thing which i should have mentioned in my 1st blog that phenomenon of MUTED CALL happened sometimes, let say in 100 PTTs, call goes MUTE about 50-60 times. So this problem is INTERMITTENT in nature. So, we may rule out problem of De-Sensing of repeaters.

    Seconuedly, we have to use walkie talkies within a radius of 3 km primarily, so keeping in view the hell amount of output power of motorola repeaters, we can also rule out Out Of Coverage Area issue.

    Thirdly, we are not using RF combiners.

    Lastly, yes, we are worried about anything we are doing wrong in programming of walkie talkies for which i needed guidance from you. Actually, local contractor is in touch with us and working on this problem but they are troubleshooting thru hit and trial method. Keeping in view of your experience worldwide and stature, i was looking for some pin-pointed advice that this this this option must be selected/ not selected or this this this value must be adjusted in this this this option etc ....

    Regards ....

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    1. If you aren't using a combiner then the chances are very high that you are having a de-sense problem. Try turning the RF power down to 1W and see if the symptom goes away - if it does, then it's definitely de-sense.

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    2. You might also have a dead spot problem. Does the symptoms only occur when the users are close to the repeaters? If yes, then this might be the cause.

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  11. Sir thanx for your kind reply. Actually 95% users are within the 1 km range of repeater except 5 % users who are uptil 1.5 km. and problem remains same whether users are standing infront of antenna or little away from repeater within 1/ 1.5 km. Bringing down the value of RF power to 1W will render our communication down sir which will not be bearable for users. But if u insist to check, we may bye able to check for trial purpose on a trial repeater.
    Moreover, is it necessary to connect 02 repeaters in capacity plus mode with a switch as in my opinion, switch is required for more than 2 devices ... i told u that we have connected cap plus repeaters thru ethernet cable.
    It is pertinent to mention that this problem of MUTED CALL is not only being observed in cap plus repeaters but also on single repeater in normal digital mode.

    Regards ...

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    1. You'll have to turn the power down on both repeaters for the (temporary) test. For two repeaters you don't really need a switch but it's a low cost item and makes sense to have for various reasons.

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  12. This comment has been removed by the author.

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    1. Check the UDP ports on both repeaters.
      If you are connecting via Routers, check the port forwarding settings in the Routers.
      Make sure that the Radio ID in both repeaters are unique.
      Also see my videos on repeater configuration http://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLajLE2N1ugvAZmpCewiML2I9yxgUJ46Da

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  13. Hello Mr Wayne.
    do you know of any LCP system with NAI data and voice installed?
    Latest update an LCP system to use NAI data and voice with TRBOnet Plus,
    but we have problems with NAI data and MNIS services

    The vocal part works ok, but the data part (text, GPS, etc) does not work when the MNIS service is turned on.

    I do some different settings on routers to use data NAI?

    I have the last Firmware version 2.4 and the recommended router HP MRS 20-20,
    MNIS 2.40.5000 and DDMS 3.40.500

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  14. do you know of any LCP system with NAI data and voice installed?
    Latest update an LCP system to use NAI data and voice with TRBOnet Plus,
    but we have problems with NAI data service and MNIS

    The vocal part works ok, but the data part (text, GPS, etc) does not work when the service MNIS is turned on

    But if I have only 1 site with trbonet NAI data and MNIS work

    I do some different settings on routers to use data NAI?

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    1. See http://cwh050.blogspot.de/2014/08/roaming-rssi-threshold.html?showComment=1422567695035

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  15. I have the repeaters in the laboratory
    simulating Site 1 and Site 2

    besides having the radios programmed without roaming thought that this could affect me

    Do you think that this issue is roaming,
    without having it programmed into the radio?

    indeed the RSSI threshold of repeaters is in -40db
    since they are at the same table

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    1. I don't understand your question? If the radios aren't roaming, there would be no ARS messages (other than the one the radios send when turned on) and hence no traffic between MNIS and TRBONET Plus. Setting the RSSI Threshold to -40dBm only eliminates interference between the repeaters as a cause for call fails.

      Where are you located? Are you a Motorola dealer or distributor?

      Delete
  16. Wayne,

    thanks for this article.

    I'm curious is it possible to establish an IP connectivity between Motorola and Hytera DMR repeaters?
    As I can see, both CPSs allow configuring UDP ports, master/slave roles, addresses, etc.

    Regards,
    Marijan

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  17. Hi,

    Im hoping you might be able to help with an issue we are having getting two DR3000's to talk to each other from two diffferent sites.

    One end is connected directly to a Technicolour TG582 router but is not showing up in the attached devices list, the logs were not showing any traffic and when I ran an open port test on the external IP it was showing 50000 as closed. Have you ever had this issue?

    We switched the router to an old Netgear and the DR3000 then showed up fine in the attached devices list, the open port test succeeded and I can see traffic coming from the repeater at the other site however it seems to be coming from a different port. Here is the log extract and open port test results -

    --------------------------------
    Wed, 2015-07-22 18:24:27 - UDP Packet - Source:164.39.64.114,2055 Destination:192.168.1.253,50000 - [MOTOR(UDP) match]
    Wed, 2015-07-22 18:26:47 - UDP Packet - Source:164.39.64.114,2055 Destination:192.168.1.253,50000 - [MOTOR(UDP) match]
    Wed, 2015-07-22 18:28:37 - UDP Packet - Source:164.39.64.114,2055 Destination:192.168.1.253,50000 - [MOTOR(UDP) match]
    Wed, 2015-07-22 18:30:07 - UDP Packet - Source:164.39.64.114,2055 Destination:192.168.1.253,50000 - [MOTOR(UDP) match]
    Wed, 2015-07-22 18:31:17 - UDP Packet - Source:164.39.64.114,2055 Destination:192.168.1.253,50000 - [MOTOR(UDP) match]
    --------------------------------

    Starting Nmap 6.00 ( http://nmap.org ) at 2015-07-22 21:58 EEST
    Initiating UDP Scan at 21:58
    Scanning 81.168.54.130 [1 port]
    Completed UDP Scan at 21:58, 0.18s elapsed (1 total ports)

    Nmap scan report for 81.168.54.130
    Host is up.

    PORT STATE SERVICE
    50000/udp open|filtered unknown



    Both ends have been setup to UDP 50000.



    Any ideas would be much appreciated.




    Regards,

    Andrew Harrison.

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    1. Sounds like there is a problem with the Router. These consumer grade routers can be problematic. I've used a Netgear WNR1000 before but only to illustrate port forwarding without the need for a long explanation of Router configuration. For live systems I'm using HP (and Mikrotik for ham stuff).

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  18. Thanks Wayne. Do you need to setup port forwarding at both sites or just the master? The Master and Peer are at different sites connected via the internet.

    Ive only setup port forwarding at the master site and it seems to be doing the job as I can run a port test on UPD 50000 and I can see in the logs its passing the traffic on.

    Thanks in advanced,
    Andrew.

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    1. Generally port forwarding only needs to be set up on the Router attached to the Master repeater.

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    2. Thanks, that's what I thought. Its a puzzling one I was expecting the units to just link up once the correct IPs and link settings were programmed.

      Regards,
      Andrew.

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  19. Wayne,

    Should the RDAC software be able to remotely connect to the DR3000 ?

    RDAC on laptop --> Internet --> Firewall (with port forward setup) ---> DR3000?

    I'm not getting any response from the DR3000 even though I am seeing logs in the netgear router.

    Thanks,
    Andrew.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Yes, that configuration will work. You'll have to use the public IP address of the Firewall. RDAC connects to the Master repeater to get info about the peers.

      Delete
  20. I can see the connection attempts in the firewall log but RDAC will not connect remotely so im thinking we have an issue with the router. I will try and connect locally when im on site tomorrow to prove it.

    We are using RDAC 4.0 Build 50 and the DR3000 is using R02.40.01 , do you know if these are compatible?

    Thanks,
    Andrew.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Ah, well there's part of your problem: you need a newer version of RDAC (currently version 6.5.....I think). RDAC isn't forwards compatible.

      There might also be a problem on the Router. If RDAC connects, when the PCs on the LAN then the Router should be checked.

      Delete
    2. So I managed to update RDAC to version 6.0 which is the correct release for R02.40.01

      When I try and connect to the DR over the local LAN we get error #4316. This happens if I go through the DHCP or directly connected to the DR.

      I can Ping the DR ok. Any ideas?

      Thanks,
      Andrew.

      Delete
    3. I don't know that error code. At least I've never seen it before.

      I assume that this repeater is a Master and that the RDAC ID is unique (i.e. the RDAC ID is not used as a Radio ID in any other repeater)? Also, make sure the repeater isn't running Dynamic Mixed Mode.

      Delete
  21. Thanks Wayne, I will check the Dynamic Mixed Mode. The Radio and RDAC IDs are all unique.

    Andrew.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Wayne,

      Its running in Digital mode. When setting the Master options what would you set the Master IP to? we have it set to the external IP of the site, but I've seen others set to the same as the internal network IP or 0.0.0.0 ??

      Thanks,
      Andrew.

      Delete
    2. The Master requires a static IP address and this should be on the LAN subnet.

      Delete
  22. Hy! We have problem with ip connect. We use SLR stations for master and peers. Currently there are 1 master and 2 peers located each in one city and connected over internet. Master has an static IP (in terms of internet and LAN), and peers have static ip in terms of lan and dynamic ip (internet). They comunicate with each other - peer 1 comunicate with master and vice versa, and peer 2 also comunicate with master and vice versa. But problem is - when portable motorola connected with peer 1 goes into transmision, portable motorola connected with peer 2 cannot hear conversation, and vice versa, but portable motorola conected with master can hear them both.

    ReplyDelete
  23. There could be multiple causes:

    Are the radios on the same slot and group?
    Are you able to make a private call or send a text message between all the radios?
    Are you able to communicate between radios on the same site?

    Is the slot, on which the radios operate, configured for wide area operation (i.e. linked)?
    Is the repeater generating beacons?
    Are the UDP port numbers unique for each peer? And is the Master repeater UDP port correct in all peers?

    Are the above port numbers being forwarded by the access router?
    Are you able to see the outbound and inbound UDP traffic on each of the LANs?
    Is the above traffic arriving on the correct port?
    Wireshark is the tool to use for the above 3 questions.

    Please also have a look at my FAQ page if you need further support.

    ReplyDelete
  24. Each peer has to have unique udp port but master udp has to be 50000 for all of them? Currently they all have udp port 50000 as master udp port and their udp port? We see that 1st peer connect to master over 50000, but 2nd peer is connecting over some 49*** port (each time we reset 2nd peer router it changes) and we can hear radio connected to 2nd peer on radio connected to master, but radio connected to 1st peer cannot hear radio from 2nd peer and vice versa. We connected 3rd peer on other site and it connects to master and 1st peer can hear him and vice versa, but 2nd peer cannot. We are suspecting that router in 2nd peer site is problem, but port forward is configured for port 50000 and 2nd peer ip.

    ReplyDelete
  25. As for Wireshark - I tested it only on master site, but first I had to reroute port 50000 to computer's ip to capture packets, and it shows me that 1st peer is connecting over 50000 port and is routed to 50000 port, but 2nd peer is connecting over 49222 (currently) port and is routed to 50000 port. So it seems that 2nd peer's router is making it's peer to connect on 49222 port instead of 50000. But port forwarding in 2nd peer's router is enabled for peer on port 50000 although when port forwarding wasn't configured it still didn't connect over 50000 port like it is configured in peer.

    ReplyDelete
  26. The UDP port number for the Master can be 50000. Then the (own) port numbers for the Peers must be 50001 and 50002.

    If the Router is configured correctly, the above ports numbers will be forwarded to the Repeater. If they aren't then there is a problem with the Router.

    What make/model of Router are you using?

    ReplyDelete
  27. Hi Wayne
    I have set up an entirely separate 'internal network' for my customer, a local 2-way provider, using Moto 3000 and IP Site Connect.

    I am using Mikrotik routers running OSPF with VPN connectivity (L2TP) to a pair of 'core' routers in separate data centres.

    Latency end to end is well under 60ms and generally around 30-50 ms.

    Each site has a separate /24. i.e. the Master is 192.168.0.x/24, with the remotes being 192.168.1.x, 192.168.2.x etc.

    My customer's users are complaining of dropped calls and poor audio. I can see nothing wrong with the IP network. Pings and traceroutes are all fine between all parts of the network. There is no NAT anywhere, and no ports are firewalled within the private network.

    Do you have any recommendations on topology for configuring such a network? I'm suspecting problems with the radio configs and I'm not really an expert in the Moto kit as I'm just the internet service provider.

    What is the throughput you would expect to require on voice traffic across the network?

    Any help or advice would be really welcome.

    Thanks. Tim Robinson

    ReplyDelete
  28. For a two site IP Site Connect system with both slots linked, you would need 39kbps (55kbps with VPN).

    Are you able to communicate okay between radios while they are both on the same site (slot/channel)? Does this happen on both/all sites?
    Is this a new system or have they migrated from analogue? If so, was the analogue system working correctly? If not, are things like the antenna duplexer etc, okay?

    ReplyDelete
  29. Hi Wayne
    Thanks for the quick reply. We've got 5 sites networked. A master site plus 4 remote sites. I've not really had anything to do with the Motorola kit - I've just set up the network of Mikrotik routers as IP networking is my thing. (I worked at Motorola in Basingstoke for 20 years btw, but not on the 2-way stuff)
    Do you have any suggestions on how to set the motorola kit up when you are operating solely on an internal network with no NAT at all?

    ReplyDelete
  30. For the repeaters have a look at http://bit.ly/1NbYFS6. For the radios have a look at http://bit.ly/1HYLn3D. I have a cheat sheet somewhere in one of the older posts which lists all the "important" settings.

    ReplyDelete
  31. Dear Mr.Wayne,

    My name is Quoc, I live in Vietnam.

    I would like to question to you that: LCPs sites of Mototrbo system may be use 3G router?

    Thanks,
    Quoc.Mai

    ReplyDelete
  32. Yes, provided the 3G network can provide the required bandwidth. Note that with 3G, the majority of the traffic is downstream whereas with MOTOTRBO the majority of traffic is upstream. You will need to ask the network operator to confirm this.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Hi Wayne, I am about to attempt to engineer MotoTRBO IPSC connect network over 3G using SWIFT Agents and TRBOnet. For a timeslot with perhaps an average of 2hours voice traffic over 24hr. How much data do you think this would consume? I am trying to get a feel for how much data I will need to purchase for each fixed IP SIM you see.

      Many Thanks in Advance

      Si

      Delete
    2. It's hard to say because TRBONET Swift is not a Motorola product. It also uses a different VOCODER and compression rate.

      If this were IPSC and you had (for example) 3 repeaters with both slots wide, the sites would consume around 12kbps when idle and 72kbps when there is activity on both slots. My guess would be that TRBONET would be something like that. I'm not so sure of my calculations but it seems that 8,46GB would be needed for this configuration.

      Delete
    3. 8,46GB per month that is.

      Delete
    4. Remember that with IPSC - since there is no Core Switch and since IP multicast is not used - most of the traffic will be upstream. So on 3G you would get up to 6Mbps but in reality this would be 5,5Mbps down and (at best) 1Mbps up.

      Delete
    5. The guys at Neocom have a solution for low speed high latency IP networks which involves their Swift product.

      Delete
  33. respected,
    we have problems with IP site Connect network, we have 3 DMR repeaters, master and 2 peer, after 3-4 hours of peer 2 is still on the network, we can see by CPS when remotely connect to the master, but the communication fails.
    After resetting the router which is connected to a peer 2 communication is again possible for several hours.
    issues;
    Should make a forword udp / tcp on peer 2?
    Should I need to set the Firewall Open Timer 60 sec, is now set to 6 sec?
    TNX

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. The peer firewall open timer will not make any difference unless you are using a VPN.
      NAT (Port Forwarding) would have been the cause, if the Peer couldn't connect to the Master at all.
      The Peer can connect to the Master and voice traffic does pass but then stops. Resetting the Router restores connectivity so my guess would be that the Router is the cause. What make/model Router are you using?

      Delete
  34. Hi Wayne,
    we have two repeaters set on IP connect. One is master at site A and 2nd is peer at site B. when we try to initiate a call from site A to site B it is successful, but when initiate a call from site B to Site A, it is not initiated on both sides. but if initiate a call on both sides and then drop call from one site it is continue on both sides, either we talk from site A or B.
    we also change the master peer sites but get same result that call initiated from site A is successful but from B it is not successful.
    Furthermore both repeaters are remotely accessibly from any site (either Site A or Site B) also ping reply is successful on both sides.

    kindly advise.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. That sounds like an issue in the Router - specifically port forwarding.

      Delete
  35. Hello Mr. Wayne,

    Is there a way to simulate an LCP system in a lab/workshop environment using simple consumer routers like WRT300N? Possibly as close as possible to the actual deployment of the system so that there will be minimal configuration on site. Specially when the two sites are very far form each other.


    Thanks,

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Yes, that is possible. But it's very important to use good quality industrial grade networking hardware once deployed in the field. Also make sure to use low power on the radios and dummy loads on the repeaters.

      Delete
  36. Slightly off subject but, the MTR3000 has a really bad front panel design. You have to remove the Bezel to get at the Ethernet port and there is no where for the Ethernet cable to go so the Bezel can be replaced neatly. It should have been mounted on the rear of the repeater. Now I am going to have to cut a slot somewhere to get my ethernet cable our and round the back.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. It is possible to feed an Ethernet cable from the back but the connector needs to be fitted afterwards. Prefabricated cables won't work.

      Delete
    2. Thanks Wayne, I will do that with Cat6 Screened cable.
      And more on subject this time, I have 3 new Out of the Box new MTR3000 and setting them up in the workshop. I did notice that if I don't use any Routers but configure IP addresses manually using the Master as the default gateway for the Peer and vice-versa for the Master, indeed IPSC works a treat, but getting RDAC to connect via IP is impossible as the Repeater default gateways are pointing at each other. Unfortunately it is not possible to not specify a default gateway like on Windows (also Linux won't allow the saving of the Network connection without a Default Gateway) so that devices on the same subnet connect. I am going to try a different backbone connection method rather than using individual Routers. My remote location (10km away) has a private uWave fast link and we already have voip and browsing capability over the link. I intend to use VLANs.
      DO you see any problem with this?

      Delete
    3. RDAC should work as long as the PC on which it's installed is in the same subnet as the repeaters and if the subnet mask allows this.

      Delete
  37. Dear Wayne,
    thank you very much for your advises. I am trying to set up two repeaters from two separated sites, but cannot connect it through a wireless routers (Globe Surfer3).
    Have you got any router setting sample, that could help me to set it up?
    Thank You Very Much anyway;)
    Vas

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. No, sorry I don't. Have you looked at http://cwh050.blogspot.de/2012/12/mototrbo-ip-networking-requirements.html and http://cwh050.blogspot.de/2012/10/linked-capacity-plus-example-router.html?

      Delete
    2. I will have a look.
      Thank You Very Much!
      Vas

      Delete
    3. Yes,
      I had a look at those. But still cannot connect two wireless routers.

      Delete
    4. Are you able to ping form both sites?
      Are the Routers not blocking the UDP port used?
      Does the system work if the repeaters are connected directly with each other?
      Have you set up the Router as described in the posts and videos?

      Delete
  38. Dear, good night, I wonder if I can help.
    I have a system IP SITE CONNECT, months ago, I worked smoothly, but from a while back, I no longer operates the link, to how much and achieved that when the teacher speaks Lebante the slave, but when the slave initiates the call not up to the teacher. but if peteteo the master while the channel is habierto slave, enters communication. I present this fault after a fall of internet and internet change equipment

    The teacher is with fixed ip.
    Teacher: ip 192.168.1.200
    ip gateway: 192.168.1.1
    masck: 255.255.255.0
    ip master 186103203163
    Ouerto udp: 50000

    slave ip: 192.168.1.201
    ip gateway: 192.168.1.1
    masck: 255.255.255.0
    ip teacher: 186103203163
    udp port: 50000

    in the router (TP-LINK) teacher in port forwordering, is activated
    Udp 192.168.1.200 port 50000

     And not know what else to do, since formerly worked me and now and the representative of motorola here in Chile, tells me that the system is not designed to work with systems household internet, but for large companies that have vpn in their respective branches or in different regions, which do not think so, because if my system was working.
    agradecere your help.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. It's hard to say without more details. You need to think carefully about what changed (even unrelated things) when, or shortly before, the system stopped working? Any changes after the system stopped working are unrelated and can be ruled out.

      I assume you've tried restarting those routers? Have you looked at the activity on both LANs with WireShark?

      Delete
  39. Hi Wyane,

    With IP Site Connect, it is normal practice that each site, say within a campus covering 40km's needs its own subnet? Of typically, are all sites within the campus on the same subnet?
    Thanks

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. No, each site does not need to have its own subnet. Each repeater needs to have a unique IP address and the standard rules for networking apply.

      Delete
    2. Thanks for the clarification Wayne.

      That thus means that if all Repeaters on all sites are in the same subnet within a campus, no Router is required for communication. Simply Layer 2 switch to connect the Repeaters onto a LAN. Repeaters would then communicate with each other over this one LAN (one subnet)?

      Delete
    3. Thanks for the clarification Wayne.

      That thus means that if all Repeaters on all sites are in the same subnet within a campus, no Router is required for communication. Simply Layer 2 switch to connect the Repeaters onto a LAN. Repeaters would then communicate with each other over this one LAN (one subnet)?

      Delete
  40. Hello Wayne,

    I am Kenneth from Indonesia, would like to ask about the number of channel on IP Site Connect and Link Capacity Plus network. On the networks you described, both sites (site 1 and site 2)have the same number of channels.
    Is this a must for ISC and LCP ?
    Any problem will happen if the number of channel is not the same ?

    Thanks and regards,
    Kenneth

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. No, you do not need to have the same number of channels on each site. In IPSC there are no consequences.

      In LCP (now known as Multisite Capacity Plus) if there is an unequal number of channels on each site then there is a risk that a wide area Talkgroup call will be denied (system busy) even though there are free channels (slots) on the currently selected site. This can be avoided by setting up the talkgroups so that they are not relayed onto sites where those talkgroups are not needed.

      Delete
    2. Wayne,

      Thanks for the answer.
      Where can I get the Capacity Max system planner ?

      regards,
      Kenneth

      Delete
    3. In Europe at least - if you are Motorola Partner - from Motorola Online...but you need to take the course and pass the exam. I don't know about the other regions.

      (Cap Max is not child's play hence the reason for the course and exam)

      Delete
    4. [EDIT] ...but you need to take the course and pass the exam in order to access the documentation and tools.

      Delete
  41. Dear Wayne Holmes. We lunched IP Site Connect based on 4 SLR5500 repeaters. There is no routers on this network - only swithes. Sometimes we notice very bad sound quality on radios, sometimes the sound quality is good. This is very uncertain situation. What do you this should be checked firstly. Moreover the radio signal is proper, not to all and not too much. All pings are ok, no jitter, delay time below 10ms, all network stats looks ok. Best Regards!Dominick

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Are you certain that the root cause is the IP network? If yes, have you tried checking the available bandwidth / contention using iPerf? 4 repeater running IPSC will need about 64kbps.

      Delete
  42. Dear Wayne Holmes,

    We have a LCP running in our workshop. Everything looks fine. We have connectivity between the 3 sites via a simulated WAN, they can talk each other and one radio can talk with another in other site.

    The problem is when I try to see the repeaters in RDAC I can just see the Master.

    Any Idea?

    Thanks.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Looks like a Routing problem. Are all the port numbers unique in the Peers?

      Delete
    2. Yes they are all different. If it is a routing problem, why a radio can talk with another one in other site?

      Thanks Mr Wayne

      Delete
    3. RDAC works by first con necting to the Master repeater. The Master tells RDAC about the Peer repeaters (IP address and port). RDAC then interrogates the Peers to get their alarm and status data. This is all done using UDP/IP and if the packets from the Peers arent getting to the RDC PC they will not be shown.

      If RDAC is on the same LAN and the Master repeater then the Router needs to support NAT loopback and the IP address of the Master should be set to the IP address of the Router.

      If you run Wireshark on a mirror port while RDAC is running you should see the packets going to and froo on the UDP ports you've set in RDAC and the repeaters.

      Obvious check: the RDAC ID is not duplicated in any of the Radio IDs of the repeaters? And the UDP port number is also forwarded in the Router to which RDAC is connected?

      Delete
  43. Wayne could you see a reason why a XPR8300 or XPR8400 would not work with a master IP of 10.240.126.4 (gateway 10.240.126.1 and netmask 255.255.255.248). the peers do not see it nor can RDAC. if I change the master IP to 167.13.189.13 (gateway 167.13.189.9, netmask 255.255.255.0) (another system in the same location) it works fine and RDAC sees it. I have tried this on a standalone network (on my bench with a linksys 8 port dumb switch) with the same result. in both cases, UDP is 50000

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Wireshark will be able give you some clues.

      Delete
  44. Dear Wayne!

    First I would like to mention that I'm only "network guy", so my terminology and knowledge of Mototrbo system is lacking. My colleague services radios and repeaters.

    Second, we contacted Motorola Poland, they referred us to company who sold us radios, and they could not solve our problem. That's why I'm asking you for an advice.

    We have five DR3000 repeaters connected with L2 VPN network from Internet Provider; because it's L2 network no routing nor firewalling takes place. For some historical reasons repeaters get addresses from 10.0.0.0/20 network: 10.0.4.2, 10.0.5.2, 10.0.6.2, 10.0.7.2 and 10.0.8.2 (master). Addresses are statically configured with proper netmasks. There is also router in this network, used to communicate with our company LAN and additional repeaters, but problem affects also this five devices in L2 network.

    When we press PTT button on one radio communicating with one repeater, all radios communicating with all other repeaters
    should receive voice transmission and display calling station ID on LCD - I call it "broadcast call". That's how it worked
    until November, when following problem arose:

    When we "broadcast call", radios communicating with other repeaters don't get this call, but as usual the green LEDs on this "calling" repeater labelled TxA and TxB light up. Now, if we call SIMULTANEOUSLY from radios communicating with two different repeaters, suddenly calls are received both ways and it continues as long as green LEDs are illuminated. When we won't call for 5 seconds, LEDS go out and again we can't call radios on another repeater.

    And here's the best: I've sniffed packets on master link and didn't saw any significant difference in UDP packets (same number, similar lengths) between both situations: master repeater receiving them normally doesn't react, but if simultaneous communication took place less than 5 seconds ago, it receives call (LEDs light up,
    radio receives voice). Sometimes this is occurring both-ways, and sometimes calls from master reach radios on slaves, but not the other way around. Repeaters were replaced multiple times, and connected through single switch are working OK.

    When trying to troubleshoot this issue we've stumbled on another problem: we've connected two repeaters with single switch
    and they worked fine, then slave repeater of this testing pair was connected to our production network. Unfortunately we forgot to reconfigure it's IP and temporarily there were duplicate IP addresses in the network. We quickly fixed this, but for the rest of this test
    we had strange problems, like repeaters still responding on bad IP, even after reboot. It was most evident when we started configuration tool, listed repeaters (only 5, despite sixth was connected with now proper IP), selected one of the "old", production repeaters, read it's configuration in, changed it and when tried to write, on repeater list currently configured repeater was replaced with new, test repeater with PROPER IP.

    Does this symptoms tell anything to you? Some of them indicate DR3000 problem (UDP packets always come through) and some indicate
    network failure (repeaters connected with single switch work OK). And I'm slowly out of ideas.

    Thanks.
    Mariusz Cegiełka

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. It's difficult to say...
      You need to think about what changed on or shortly before the date in November when the network stopped working? Even changes that seem unrelated need to be considered.
      Was anything else connected to the network in November at or shortly before that time?
      Does resetting the repeater seem to clear the problem?
      What is the RSSI Threshold set to in the repeaters?

      Delete
  45. Hi Wayne,

    Thanks for your answer. I forgot to ask for RSSI Threshold, but our case shows some "progress": now two repeaters in our "lab" misbehave too.

    They are connected with simple switch and show the same behaviour: calls from one are not received on another, unless both call simultaneously, then every call is received until there is no transmission for 5 seconds. After 5 seconds from last call TxA and TxB LEDS go off and no further call is received, until again there is simultaneous call. In this test setup there were different repeaters, DR3000 as master and SLR5000 as peer. According to guys configuring repeaters and radios, both were set up with basic settings. And when I sniffed network, I saw UDP packets being sent in both ways. This moves suspicions toward software, hardware or configuration of repeaters. I will send update if we progress troubleshooting further.

    Best regards
    Mariusz Cegiełka

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Hi again,

      Problem were solved by my colleagues, I'm forwarding what I've been told: repeaters' firmware were downgraded to version "from 2013" and after testing devices in another service company "network interface cards" were replaced in two repeaters.

      Delete
  46. Hi Wayne

    We have an interesting problem at one of our mine sites. We have several SLR5500's connected via a simple DELL switch in IPSC mode.

    It's all working great on FW version 1.xx, but when we upgrade to FW version 2.6.008 or 2.07.01 we suddenly lose connectivity between the repeaters. We have simulated the problem in our workshop, and as long as we use a switch we have no connectivity. If we replace the switch with a router (we use Zyxel or HP) the connectivity returns.

    Could this be an issue with Level2 vs Level3 in the switch/router that is causing the problem?

    Ordinarily I'd just simply replace the Dell switch, but the end-user will not let us make any changes to their IT network.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. A comparison between the two with Wireshark would be interesting to look at and could show where the problem is. Be careful to make sure that *all* the repeaters are on the same firmware version.

      Delete

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